Nostr View

Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

We are beginning the development process for transmitting Nostr events in a peer-to-peer fashion, away from relays. This will start with Gift-wrapped DMs, Private Attachments, Private zaps, Private Text Notes, and Private Reactions; and will be the preferred transmission choice if both users are online, falling back to relays when they are not. Our Push Notification system already transmitted over 500,000 GiftWrapped Nostr events that relays will never see. With a full P2P this will get even better and will open the doors for voice and video calls directly inside Amethyst. Side-stepping relays won't be easy or quick. And I am sure we will get strong pushback from relay operators. But we will get there. And while this might start as an Amethyst feature, it will be a NIP and other clients will be able to join the privacy train. Nostr is just starting.

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utxo ⚡🫂 @utxo ⚡🫂 - 2y

Now it's just nost I guess

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river @river - 2y

What are some of the possible drawbacks from side stepping relays?

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CMHRZKSR⚡ @CMHRZKSR⚡ - 2y

content privacy or complete privacy?

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liminal @liminal - 2y

Even less of an illusion for "global"

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deleted @deleted - 2y

How exactly is it possible to remove the R ? Im confused.

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Neo ⚡️ @neo - 2y

👀

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deleted @deleted - 2y

I know thay haha, i mean like how exactly can nostr work peer 2 peer instead of with relays.

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deleted @deleted - 2y

Its the first im hearing of this development.

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Cameri @Cameri - 2y

are the energy and bandwidth requirements for this higher or lower? Are you planning on using negentropy for sync? Does that mean that my IP address would be available to any other user on Nostr?

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deba2 - 2y

Are you building from scratch or reusing existing infra? E.g. Briar has solid implementation for passing messages over Bluetooth or local WiFi, Holepunch has interesting P2P streaming, SimpleX has good no-user-id concept, lightning has onion routing, Tor or I2P are the standard...

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5be64 - 2y

You're pushing what now? Why is your service collecting and viewing all of this data something that's supposed to be better off that not letting it viewed in relays? You're also probably getting those because you default on gift wraps for DMs and it's causing user confusion so they don't even know.

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738f6 - 2y

#Nostr 2.0 is incoming.... 👀🤙 nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqznscs53

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

Humm.. I thought you would be happy with the privacy improvement... The push notification service just double wraps and transmits already signed giftwraps and other events that are coming from relays. It's the same old push service, but now extremely private.

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

The visibility of the IP address is what I am testing right now. We can always make it go through an internal Tor implementation, which I am also testing right now. But Tor won't work for voice and video calls later. But I think that use case is less sensitive of IP leakage since the user approves the call when receiving it. Lots to do yet.

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

What if both users are on Tor?

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Bitkorns @Bitkorns - 2y

No strong push back from this relay. I'm only running one b/c this isn't already a thing. nostr:nevent1qqsxes7e7r773kttrjjf3kw98pahz430jkn999jxuqsnw3qq7gprslcpvemhxue69uhkv6tvw3jhytnwdaehgu3wwa5kuef0dec82c33wehx66ryxgurwurk0puxkdth89kkx7trvcerxctkxg6xuumrwa4nqerpxae8yenpvy6hwuf5dsuxsum9dpenjvrxw3k8v0mzwfhkzerrv9ehg0t5wf6k2q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqz5rkj52

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

In the way I see it, it's about the protocol to check if two people are online and then send the event over there, falling back to relays if it doesn't. The most basic version should work for this simplistic scenario. Then we can improve it over time.

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5be64 - 2y

I don't get how you're side stepping relays with these or why you think that it is good that you're able to see all of this data but relays aren't. Also any sort of social p2p shit doesn't scale. Been there done that. It's a pipedream. The only reason things work here at all is because of async mailboxes.

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jeff @jeff - 2y

Interesting. Looking forward to see what you cook up. From the nostr readme: “it does not rely on P2P techniques, and therefore it works”

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

And the async mailboxes will be there when the app needs it. They just won't be used for private events to make sure folks can't track people (or at least can't touch the complete message set).

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5be64 - 2y

But it's okay for you to see all?

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

I am not seeing anything. It will be P2P.

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

That's what I said :)

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5be64 - 2y

He's literally bragging about seeing half a million private messages

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5be64 - 2y

It won't be, it will be a larp. You can learn from all the failed projects or not. Trying to push nostr to be p2p will be a wasted effort.

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

Those messages come from regular relays people are using and our service pulls from to deliver notifications. We double wrap them before shipping them out. I am very surprised you are having a hard time with this. This is not rocket science.

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Vitor Pamplona @Vitor Pamplona - 2y

Well, you have your experience and your assumptions and I have my experience and my assumptions.

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7235c - 2y

It's a good idea. And basically how torrents work anyways

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5be64 - 2y

Do you have any sort of experience building p2p systems, especially in a privacy focused way? Do you realize the jeopardy you put your users in by deploying half baked ideas that won't even work? 1. How are you going to punch through NAT? 2. How are you going to keep that punch through method discoverable by every user? 3. How are you going to deal with users on different punch through methods/servers? 4. What's the best one out there currently? 5. Who is going to run the always online servers needed for punch through? 6. Are you expecting users to always connect to yet another server outside of relays, for the "sake of privacy"? 7. Why on earth would I want to connect directly to a random pubkey on nostr? I choose my relays. If you think I shouldn't trust them, why would I trust a random user? 8. How often do you actually expect that there's synchronous conversations? 9. If it breaks down at all and falls back often, the actual gains are miniscule.

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15af9 - 2y

So, would your IP be shared with your peers? That doesn't initially look too good for privacy. Looking forward to learning more about this 'protocol'. 🫂

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