96098 - 3y
lnbc433165200p1p3anwfxpp5rsqrzvvcheys52hlhrhvt2xk4pm9c9cyzfvyvljjgxan20as5w0sdq6235kx6mvv5sx67fqwp5kx6mvv5cqpjsp55eclaw6w3cyzfpczvhpgpw7jdge7wmy8ew6q2ys6g88qj5v96f7q9q7sqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqsqqqqqysgqmqz9gxqyjw5qrzjqwryaup9lh50kkranzgcdnn2fgvx390wgj5jd07rwr3vxeje0glcllaqfy6thujwl5qqqqlgqqqqqeqqjq5edq2a94avvxrt87tqzfhhn0f4yp6gu98hs8jcy30pjd0a99l09rg8u3ddxjtwzq6rhezxxq9udchrn5g2h6zj5veygh30hngkvkl5cq2aw8vr
0840f - 3y
Aren't you a BSVer?
Nope
You called it the original design of Bitcoin, and claimed there was no RBF in the original design when that is incorrect.
I’m not a BSVer. I am me. I did talk about BSV and compared it’s design to the original design and implementation. I don’t pick side for the sake of being tribal, because I am just me (no labels).
Your comparison, or as you put it saying BSV was the original design was wrong on most points you attempted to make.
"It seems like $BSV is the original design of Bitcoin." is not the same as saying that "BSV is the original design". Where you misunderstand is that I was saying "it seems" and that is merely an observation of mine, not an assertion that BSV is in fact the "original design". I certainly isn't the original design. Also, what do you think I mean by "original design"? There is nuance to this that is difficult to discuss over notes. I'm happy to try to discuss it. However, I'm more interested in what you think I got wrong. Please school me because I assume you're a well intentioned individual who wishes to correct and educate others.
The design of Bitcoin allowed any needed changes to the protocol via consensus of the users and devs. It was never a locked in design that was promoted as never changing. BSV is a centrally controlled affinity scam which doesn’t resemble Bitcoin at all. It allows people that don’t like Bitcoin and don’t understand they disagree with the work Satoshi did before leaving some ability to say they “want Bitcoin” when they simply want some PayPal on Blockchain clone. BSV by design is the opposite of what Bitcoin has given us.
You’ve mentioned several times of twitter that BSV maintains the original opcodes set. It doesn’t.
I can admit that BSV doesn’t maintain the original opcode set because I didn’t verify this myself. As I understood, it reverted back to an original set of opcodes, but this could be a lie. Do you know which opcodes has been changed that makes it different from the original set? I really would like to know this for future reference.
Here’s a more detailed explainer on how this Turing completeness makes sense. Please peer-review: https://telegra.ph/An-Incomplete-Scribe-on-Bitcoins-Turing-Completeness-09-25
So you mean Bitcoin is not Turing complete, but adding something to Bitcoin could make it TC?
So you agree you were incorrect since you had no objection to this.
Bitcoin is not TC by design, you seem to Have an issue with this and can only present “if something is changed in Bitcoin then it could be TC”. That still means Bitcoin is not TC.
0d6f3 - 3y
BIP119 seems still very far away, may be smart contracts on Layer 2 would be better? What do you think about Discreet Log Contracts on Lightning Network?
I like DLCs a lot. But I don’t see how they can stand in place of covenants. What is far away for BIP119?
It’ll take more for us to align on understandings here. To find common ground, let’s say that I agree with you on this definition and fact about Turing completeness. Let me succeed to the fact that Bitcoin is not Turing complete in and of itself. Fair? Now let’s observe a fact that multiple txs broadcasts by an agent can simulate a Turing complete system. Of course this means you’d need to introduce something outside of Bitcoin on its own to be able to “run” this simulation and reconcile the outcome of this program execution into Bitcoin TXs. This may not make Bitcoin TC by the strict definitions that we agreed upon (our common ground), but now I ask: does it matter? If such a setup results in a system able to simulate a Turing complete system, then does it matter what our definitions are? From what I gather, one way of proving Turing Completeness involves being able to simulate a Turing complete program in another system. With all of that said, _adding_ something external Bitcoin to achieve TC maybe be the “trick” here, and therefore the reason why by definition you are correct, and I can concur, but my question remains: does it really matter? If so, why?
Sure. If that makes you happy.
Sort of. The way I see it, is that Bitcoin isn’t at all the program. It is more like the receipt of the program. Therefore, you can run programs on top of bitcoin and reconcile those programs to bitcoin. Does that make “bitocin TC”, idk. That’s where things get fuzzy, and also kinda pointless. I don’t think Alan Turing had anticipated this sort of thing when he invented the concept that we care so much about making arguments over… wait, why do we care so much about Turing completeness?
I shall look into the opcode set and dig into the history when I have the chance. Whew so much to do; but that’s the toll paid for verification without trust.
It's not about my happiness, it's about you being accurate in your statements.
I check the github page, isn't it still in the Draft stage? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips
明白，“我不知道走向 mass adoption 需要怎么做，如果你知道，那么你比我强。我只认为闪电网络比 rollup 强，如果闪电网络都不行，使用 rollup 为什么就行了？ ” 这是就是我想知道的分歧点，谢谢。 rollup就不谈了，已经陷入了是否 “对主链牺牲太多”的循环 回应一下DLC的问题容量很差 + 透明度低/可验证度低。这个也不只是我说的啊。 不过我确实相当期待DLC，我也说过很多遍这是BTC生态上最快可以体验smart contract的可能性了，其他方式连影都没有。 #[4]
话说，DLC可不是“技术都有了，还没有人做出产品而已。” 为了保障我没有落伍，搜了一下，还是和以前一样。 就是“mainnet开关channel成功了”。（我理解里，只能算是他们只测试了 “续约” 这个级别的功能）“Note that the code is very unstable and we would like to emphasize that using it with mainnet coins is very likely to lead to the loss of the funds.” 这种阶段我会理解成还在proof of concept阶段。离产品还有 “把所有功能都做出来---》测试”。3-5年内能有完成度高的产品都算快了(根据他们的文章和github更新进度 还有 项目的开放程度，我已经尽量往更短时间推测了)。
