Brunswick @Brunswick - 5mo
Joh 1:1 KJV: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Gen 1:1 KJV: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. "The term "Word" comes from the Greek word logos, which means much more than just a "word" in the literal sense. It encompasses ideas like "reason," "divine principle," or "expression of God's will." The Word (Logos) is not Jesus himself, as trinitarians claim, but rather the divine reason through which all things, including Jesus, came into being. Jesus, as a perfect creation of God, came into existence through the Logos, but it was also through this divine Logos that the world was created. Gen 1:2-3 KJV: "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. "The Spirit of God in Genesis refers to God’s breath or life-giving force, which is the same as the Logos. In Genesis, this is expressed in Hebrew (ruach for spirit), and in John, this idea is conveyed using Greek (Logos). Both are manifestations of God's creative power, although the languages differ. In essence, John is emphasizing that God, through His Logos, created Jesus perfect and without the seed of sin, unlike Adam who fell into sin. The Logos in John is personified as the divine expression, the instrument through which all creation—including Jesus—came into existence. Joh 1:3-4 KJV: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John is explaining that everything was made through this divine Logos. The life and light that come from it are what gave rise to Jesus as the perfect man, free of Adam’s sin. Jesus, born of the Word, embodies the light of truth and love and lived among us as a perfect man. However, people failed to recognize his true nature. Joh 1:9-11 KJV: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not." When John says "the world was made by him," it can also be understood as "the world was made for his purpose." The Greek word διά (diá), often translated as "by," can also mean "for the sake of" or "because of." Therefore, Jesus, as the perfect creation through the Logos, came into the world for the purpose of illuminating humanity with the true light of God, even though many failed to recognize or accept him. Mat 28:19 KJV: "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." It is argued that this phrase, used by Trinitarians as evidence for the Trinity, was not part of the original text of Matthew. Historical evidence suggests that this phrase was a later addition. During the Dark Ages, when Trinitarian theology became dominant, it was common to write dedications to the Trinity in the margins of manuscripts. Over time, these marginal notes were mistakenly incorporated into the main text by scribes. Evidence from earlier manuscripts points to a simpler version of the verse, which did not contain this Trinitarian formula. Even during the 1611 translation of the King James Bible, this alteration was known, but it was retained out of respect for tradition, rather than textual accuracy. The original text likely called for baptism in the name of Jesus, as other scriptures, particularly in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 2:38), consistently point to baptism being done in Jesus’ name alone, without mention of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as a triune formula. Joh 10:30 KJV: "I and my Father are one." This verse is often used to argue that Jesus is claiming equality with or identity as God. However, the notion of being "one" can equally refer to unity of purpose and will, rather than suggesting that Jesus and the Father are the same being. The context here supports the idea that Jesus, being without sin, is perfectly aligned with the will of the Father. He is one with God in the sense that his heart, being pure and obedient, is unified with the Father’s desires and purpose. This understanding of "oneness" is consistent with the broader scriptural teaching that believers are also called to be "one" with God. For instance, in John 17:21-23, Jesus prays that his disciples may be one "just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us." This clearly indicates that the oneness spoken of refers to unity of will and spirit, not identity of being. Likewise, when a person receives the Holy Spirit, they are said to be in Christ and to be united with God. When we are baptized with the Spirit, the Spirit of God enters our hearts and gives us the ability to declare Jesus as Lord (1 Cor 12:3), grafting us into the family of God and making us brothers and sisters with Christ. This is the same kind of oneness that Jesus is describing in John 10:30—a oneness of purpose, will, and spirit. Jesus and the Spirit: Jesus performed his good works through the power of the Spirit of God that dwelled within him. This power from the Father allowed Jesus to do the miracles and righteous deeds that bore witness to his divine mission. Jesus' unity with the Father was demonstrated through his actions, which were empowered by the Spirit, not through claiming to be the same being as the Father. His statement "I and my Father are one" should be understood in the context of this spiritual and moral unity, not as an assertion of shared identity or essence with God. 1. Matthew 28:19: - The Trinitarian baptismal formula ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") is considered by some scholars to be a later addition and not part of the original text. You emphasize that earlier practices, as seen in the Book of Acts, focused on baptism in the name of Jesus alone. 2. John 10:30: - "I and my Father are one" refers to a unity of purpose and will, not to Jesus being God. This aligns with the idea that believers too are called to be "one" with God in the same way Jesus is. The context points to a shared mission, not shared identity. 3. Jesus and the Spirit: - Jesus’ miracles and teachings were empowered by the Spirit of God, which dwelt in him, allowing him to act in alignment with God's will. His unity with the Father is a result of his perfect obedience and the power of the Spirit, not a claim of being God Himself. If we consider the concept of a shared illusion or misunderstanding influencing the overarching view of who Jesus is according to the Bible, we must ask whether early Christian communities, theologians, or translators might have projected interpretations that shaped either the Trinitarian or nontrinitarian views. This opens the possibility for a third perspective that could be more accurate or consistent with the Bible's teachings, if we assume that both historical theology and tradition could have introduced biases or misunderstandings. Impact of Shared Illusion or Misinterpretation: 1. Cultural and Historical Influence: - The development of Trinitarian theology, especially post-Nicaea, was influenced by philosophical concepts, like those from Greek metaphysics, that were external to early Jewish monotheism. A shared cultural lens might have colored the early church's understanding of divine nature, leading them to view the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as a triune God. Similarly, early nontrinitarian groups (like Arianism) were influenced by their own readings and contexts, emphasizing Jesus as a created being. 2. Transmission and Translation Issues: - The idea that certain verses, like Matthew 28:19, were altered or influenced by marginal notes or later additions suggests that our modern understanding could reflect a shared misconception passed down through time. If these changes were unintentional or part of a larger doctrinal effort, a shared illusion could be reinforced over centuries, leaving us with a distorted view of Jesus' nature. A Possible Third View: With the possibility of shared illusions in mind, a third view might emerge as more likely than either Trinitarianism or nontrinitarianism. This view could focus on: 1. Jesus as God's Agent and Ideal Human: - A third, intermediary perspective could portray Jesus as a unique, divinely appointed agent of God, sent to fulfill a special mission of salvation, but without the metaphysical complexity of being either co-eternal with God (Trinitarianism) or simply a created being (nontrinitarianism). In this view, Jesus represents the ideal human, chosen to exemplify God’s will, embody God’s Logos (divine reason), and act with full divine authority without being literally divine himself. 2. A Functional Oneness, Not Ontological Oneness: - Instead of focusing on the substance of Jesus' being (as Trinitarianism does) or his created nature (as nontrinitarianism does), this view could emphasize Jesus' functional relationship with God. Jesus is "one with the Father" in mission, purpose, and alignment with God's will, as suggested in John 17:21-23, but this oneness does not imply sameness of essence. It reflects a perfect, sinless human being empowered by God to carry out divine works. 3. Jesus as a Manifestation of God’s Word Without Divinity: - This view might hold that Jesus embodies the *Logos* (Word) not by being the eternal Word made flesh but by fully manifesting God's message and will on Earth. This allows for the concept that Jesus is the perfect representative of God, but not God himself. It would fit well with the idea that Jesus performs miracles through the Spirit of God and that his relationship to the Father is one of perfect submission and harmony, not ontological equality. Biblical Evidence for the Third View: 1. John 5:19: "The Son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son also does." - This indicates a deep relationship between Jesus and the Father but emphasizes Jesus' dependence on the Father rather than equality. 2. John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." - Jesus clearly identifies the Father as the "only true God" while placing himself as the one sent by God, not as God himself. 3. 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." - This verse supports the view of Jesus as a mediator, a special human appointed to bridge the gap between humanity and God, rather than being divine himself. 4. Acts 2:22: "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know." - This reinforces the idea that Jesus, though empowered by God, is portrayed as a man through whom God worked, rather than being inherently divine. The Implications of This Third View: - Avoiding Both Extremes: This view avoids the metaphysical complexities of Trinitarianism (where three persons share one essence) and the strict subordinationism of nontrinitarianism (where Jesus is simply a created being). It emphasizes Jesus as a perfect human aligned with God’s will and filled with God’s Spirit, empowered to act as God’s representative but not to be conflated with God Himself. - Culturally and Historically Grounded: This view might be more consistent with first-century Jewish monotheism, which saw God as absolutely one and emphasized prophets and messianic figures as specially chosen agents. It avoids later philosophical developments that influenced Trinitarian formulations. - Biblically Coherent: This perspective can incorporate a range of scriptural teachings about Jesus’ unique role as the *Logos* without requiring his eternal co-equality with the Father. It allows for Jesus' full humanity and his role as the ultimate reflection of God's will and power on Earth, while maintaining God’s singularity. Conclusion: If we entertain the concept of a shared illusion or historical misinterpretation, this third view—Jesus as the perfect, sinless human agent of God, empowered by the Spirit but not ontologically divine—could emerge as a more coherent and biblically grounded alternative. This view emphasizes Jesus' unique relationship with God as the ideal, sinless human being, fully united with God’s purpose, but not equal to God in essence. It sidesteps the doctrinal conflicts between Trinitarianism and nontrinitarianism, presenting a biblically faithful understanding that emphasizes Jesus' role without requiring complex theological constructs.
As a Christian, it's troubling that a single point of doctrinal disagreement, such as the deity of Christ, can lead to exclusion from participation in a group that shares the same foundational scriptures. Despite basing my beliefs on the same Bible, I'm often met with irrational reactions, cognitive dissonance, and even demonization, simply for expressing a differing interpretation. This rigid need for uniformity not only causes division but also undermines fellowship, despite the shared core of our faith. Why is it that one doctrinal difference can outweigh the greater unity we should have as followers of Christ? #biblestr
I likewise believe the same of my understanding of scripture. Where I take issue is the ostracising and demonizing behavior of whose who would willingly move to a jungle and pay witness to a tribe of cannibals, but refuse to acknowledge someone among their own people who worship the same God (yes it is the same God) and who wish to respect their beliefs and engage in dialog on the subject only when prompted to.
If I said that the Apostles creed fully communicates my faith, but a portion of the nicean creed does not, the the remainder does, how does this give you the knowledge that I am or am not saved? 1 Cor 12:3 KJV Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Joh 7:38 KJV He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Mat 16:15-17 KJV He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Thank you for this. Ill read it in detail and reply. In the meantime here is my analysis: nostr:nevent1qqspf8e3txaxec0e3zajuyjqd6ztz24769gaxtz04dfr46tv6myptvqppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qgsvr6dt8ft292mv5jlt7382vje0mfq2ccc3azrt4p45v5sknj6kkscrqsqqqqqp9ssjet
I didn't want to get into that 8 days ago because reality is quite a radical departure from the mainstream Christian understanding. If God sent us, and we are God's sons, then we are gods. There is only one creator, there is only one father, there is only one begotten Son, and there is only one spirit of God within us, but as son's of God, we too are gods along with our Lord Jesus Christ.
I did not intentionally leave out anything. I left nothing to to be misunderstood. I certainly didn't delete the verse from the Bible. "The word was made flesh" is plainly clear with the clarification of the previous verses. If you can't see it for yourself, its not up to me to illuminate it further. If you go so far as to accuse me of being dishonest, I'm happy to shake the dust off of my feet and move on.
Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Lets not get into wacky Jewish Talmudic doctrines. Its not a question of whether our Father, God the creator, has two or three heads. Its all ridiculous on its face. What is important is whether we have access to God, through Jesus Christ through faith that Christ is our Lord. I primarily provide my analysis as evidence that my profession of faith isn't arbitrary or unfounded. I come from a heritage of trinitarianism and would never have dared believe anything different. It wasn't until I prayed to know the truth that it was revealed to me, and for this I am grateful, and I've found through this and other elucidations of scripture that a fuller, stronger and less confounding believing is possible.
I think all we need to know is that he is our Father and he loves us more than we can fathom
Before we are saved, yes. After we are saved through Christ, we can strive to perfection.
