d3d74 - 2y
All these people wanting all the relays to talk to each other. i'm over thinking there should be targeted topic/community relays. You like cats? Cool, join the feline relay. Bitcoin? Relays of only Bitcoin plebs. Your relay choice is almost like an ad profile of what you're into. I think this will happen over time, but everyone right now just wants an exact clone of Twitter. That's just one small (albeit important) use case for nostr and I look forward to seeing innovation around relay connection/setup schemes.
Intuitive Guy☯️⚡ @Intuitive Guy☯️⚡ - 2y
All looking again for a globalized thing, not understanding that a multipolar world is forming in front of our eyes, at all levels, starting from a geopolitical point of view to the software and protocols one. It is a new paradigma, best you can do is adapt. #Nostr 💜🤙
eb362 - 2y
I brought this up in the Nostr Telegram but made the mistake of asking how to get a relay "free of Bitcoin ads" lol. Just hate from there, nobody interested except Jaf. People even claiming it was 'not a use case', which is bullshit. The fundamental issue is that clients (aping Twitter, stupidly) made Relays a Profile-level, rather than a Post-level setting. Relay Groups selectable at the Post level in all Clients is required for this use case to ever work. Otherwise, Clients literally break the attempt to have a topical or anti-topical Relay. Because everyone using a Twitteresque Client with your Relay in their Profile settings will blast all their off-topic thoughts to your Relay, too.
The fundamental issue is that Clients recreated Web 2.0 with a user-defined CDN by making Relays a Profile-level, rather than a Post-level setting. Relay Groups selectable at the Post level in all Clients is required for this use case to ever work. Otherwise, Clients literally break the attempt to have a topical or anti-topical Relay. Because everyone using a Twitteresque Client with your Relay in their Profile settings will blast all their off-topic thoughts to your Relay, too.
Very interesting point of view.. lot to reflct. We are stilll very early and I am pretty sure dfev are alreay working on something like that. Paid relays is the first form I think, they can be seenalready as a Post-level setup made by the user that decide which relay to connect.. correct me if I am wrong please 🍀
02748 - 2y
Assimilate the fediverse mindset.
c060b - 2y
I see the relays plugging into AI, forming a meta-intelligent mycelium network 🤯
Well put. Having a post-level relay setting seems very applicable.
So many possibilities.
I don't think intelligence or mycelium has anything to do with Nostr, and keeping relays 'dumb', thats a direct quote, is the cornerstone of the Nostr protocol. Bitcoin poetry just turns brains to mush
Have fun staying on a dumb relay! 😁
“Dumb” is a relative and subjective term. All relays will be dumb.
People are already paying for relays that provide specific services. The scope of what services relays can provide will only expand over time.
That scope has been permanently crippled by the norm of Client apps making Relay selection a Profile level setting, not a Note level selection. This means no matter how much ppl want to respect your topic or avoid a topic (say, shilling bitcoin) on a relay, any who use one of these Twitteresque client apps will be blasting your relay with his every brain fart. Irreparable destruction of a plethora of potential, done needlessly and without any thought because of the blockhead's current dominant paradigm of a grand singular global ledger, rather than the multipolar world Nostr actually enabled.
7560e - 2y
Relays by topic are not a thing and I'm not sure that's ever possible is it? The idea is many to many, so each note goes to many relays. What is the benefit of relays by topic? Surely topics are down to sampling and curation rather than note transport and routing? Your model makes it too easy to supress things.
I came here because I want to escape from Twitter's walled garden
My model? Its what the protocol enables. FiatJaf himself has spoken in telegram about out how note level selection of relay groups would be an amazing thing, and how the current paradigm influenced even his choices in Damus. With blockheads shouting over him. More relays are what we need. I have plenty hardware and TBs of monthly unused seever bandwidth. The only reason I don't host 5 relays is that nobody can choose to respect them. I'm not hosting a firehose of anime porn. And I'm not using Nostr to communicate with like minded people about anything I'm too embarrassed or security conscious about to join a global firehose. Nor will anybody else. Its a design choice to make relays inconvenient to control on demand. I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who is opposed to putting fine grained control within reach of the user. If Note level relay group selection were the norm, your local pottery group would fire one up and make it available to the world of pottery enthusiasts. Relays would balloon in numbers as they'd have limitless incentives to host. The sole incentive right now is data harvesting. But you prefer just a handful of relays forced to publish your prosperity cult propaganda for everyone on the 'decentralized' protocol to host for you. That just makes our data distributed, not decentralized.
The protocol doesn’t say only send pottery notes to pottery relays. It’s “many to many”. If some people want to send notes only to specific relays, they can do that already by changing their relay list for each submission. But most people just want the broadest spray of their notes that their data plan allows. How does a pottery relay control what is incoming? At scale? How do you know two people arranging a meet up are organising a pottery class or a date? I’m just not sure how relays by topic can ever work? Wouldn’t they demand full time moderators and all the associated cost? Thus centralising everything. Also, who decides what the topics are? I think users can curate who they follow. Get a key manager create a pottery pubkey, follow potters and enjoy your robust and resilient pottery feed. That’s how to manage topics. Global is not human readable.
c7838 - 2y
I think community relays will be a thing, and yes, they will need management, but at small scales, volunteers work (ALL BARRED unless manually allowed in), and at larger scales (low thousands members) a buck a month pays for costs if needs hired in. Obvious use case - schools in a district.
Sounds like a webserver and not a relay. I prefer the model where the network is abstracted from the infrastructure. Why centralise all your traffic on a single point failure? One that is easy to find and that a single person controls? I don't really see the benefit of having nostr and then implementing it like that? I'm sure some people will try it anyway. Moderating their relay to try and keep people on a narrow topic and begging people who are discussing their topic in other places to come and join their relay. I will be interested to see the first pottery relay and how it's content leaks out and how all the other content leaks in, and how many mods are required to keep discipline and what that means for costs and UX. Maybe people will like it?
Ah, I see. I think we dicussing different use cases. In mine a bunch of like minded people set up "UkRugbyFans" for example. We welcome fans, but i don't see us going out saying "join us, join us". Nor do I see it being about trying to control ..... Ah, we are getting into Personas. This is interesting. Personas would involve having multiple pubkeys for different purposes. So now I'm my Political Self, and I'm into relays where I can argue with Maga hats, and when i need a break I switch to my Rubgy Fan pubkey. So now each pubkey has a Notes flow relevent to it. Personas are a long standing issue in community. I will have to think about this, but suspect that next gen clients allow for personas, that would be a simple solution...hmmm- you make me think, this is good :-)
No, the only distinction I am making is that the data on relays should be mixed to the point of being homogenous. I don’t like the idea of relays being data heterogeneous because they are organised by topic. I think this is not decentralised, it’s a quasi federation.
"should" ... "I don't like" ... Well, do ya like relays, son? Then you must have some idea how to incentivize them. I don't see a link to your own public relay on your profile, why is that? I told you why there aren't 5 such links on mine. I would be especially incentivized to host things related to my communities, e.g. motocross or programming, but I'm not incentivized to host your anime porn. You have no simple way to respect my resources if you wanted to, and you prefer it that way because you hate actual decentralization and prefer a situation with a central firehose widely distributed instead. #blockheadlogic #distributedisnotdecentralized
0d655 - 2y
#[0]
You must have a good point if you keep veering off the subject to make claims about what I think of various other matters. I think you’re wilfully misinterpreting what I am saying, because you have widely misstated my opinion. Firstly there is no central fire hose any more than there is a single vista of the Pacific Ocean. Can you observe the Pacific? Yes. Does all of it exist in one place? No. Is there a single place from which you can observe all of it at once? No. All you can ever do is see the 40km to the horizon and nothing more. Can you observe the Pacific from Syndey? Yes. Can you observe the Pacific from Seattle? Yes. But are you looking at the same thing? No, not really. You pick relays and they give you a number of vista points, but you can never hope to see all of the ocean, you pick more relays to diversify your view. It seems to me that what you are suggesting is akin to taking a big portion of the sharks in the pacific, putting them in one bottle, and have 1 person decide what the price of admission is for seeing sharks.
0b39c - 2y
Great analogy describing nostr as the pacific ocean. The pacific exists everywhere but you can only see portions of it from your vantage point. This thread also goes into how topical relays don’t quite make sense, which I don’t completely disagree with… #[0] But there is a new quote going around saying “We don’t have many relays in common.” This quote shows the potential scaling issue with the model. If you find a new person to follow, you will need to add one of their relays so that you can see their notes. How many relays become too many to handle? This would be a centralizing incentive for everyone you want to talk to to be on the same relay (ahem google, apple, Microsoft) which may naturally force “topical” relays, but then who would control the flow of information in and out of those topics (tech giants)? Seems very centralized. It does not incentivize you to host your own relay because if everyone did that there’s no way to connect to every relay. What’s the right middle ground 🤔 #[1]
21a8d - 2y
Very well put, this is currently my biggest question about how this all scales too any resources to understand this bit better would be much appreciated 👍
phil @phil - 2y
I think more mirroring of events from relay to relay would somewhat resolve the issue of not having relays in common. Also possibly some more intelligence built into clients to select the optimal set of relays based on followers.
I’ll share as I get other resources. This thread is talking about the topic. I like lurking on this thread 👀👀 #[3]
Following 👀
31295 - 2y
#plebchain relay network
A relay that only accepts notes with #plebchain in them?
Yes a network of #plebchain relays that broadcast to each other
