Nostr View

This is a really interesting thread because you can watch the LITERALLY TRUE guys and the RELIGION IS FOR IDIOTS people yell at each other, across a wide divide, when they actually agree on one thing: If every single detail in every single Bible story isn't literally, exactingly, scientifically true, then the whole Bible is completely wrong about everything. nostr:nevent1qqsy2l9aapcrrmvrlv5er2yx24g7678snjc0gzqlxfdd9fg2a27yjfcprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7q3qrtlqca8r6auyaw5n5h3l5422dm4sry5dzfee4696fqe8s6qgudksxpqqqqqqzmspz4f

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

This is the same mentality that led to so much schism and war, IMO.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

Hyperventilating over particular translations, when it's like, okaaaayy... Did you even get the point of what you just read? There was an actual point to that passage.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I don't think you can have a Christian-y society without the majority of residents following Christ.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

Most Christians just accept a certain amount of ambiguity and mystery, I think. I've never actually noticed any correlation between someone taking the entire thing literally and faithfulness, but just thinking it's a metaphor is missing the point. There are lots of sagas and metaphors, all based upon ancient stories. This one is important because it's true.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

TBH, living in Texas in high school, I became convinced that I must be an atheist because I didn't think it was all literally true and they were like OMG, A HEATHEN! 😱 Like there's a religious switch and it gets flicked on and off. Some of the girls who said that to me ended up strippers and had multiple husbands and stuff, and they've all left the church, so the "literally" didn't seem to make any difference in their life, but I nearly ended up a nun and I'm the sextant. That's one data point.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

The Mormons sort of lost the plot and added a book, and I think Satoshi is just the New Age Golden Calf, but I get what you're saying. That said, I think the idea to move further away from a religious text is a direct result of the But Literally fraction raising the stakes so high that everyone gives up trying to jump over them and moves on to something else.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I think, in other words, that it's more Americana and a personality trait, rather than a reflection of actual piety or deep faith. I think most of them just had never really thought it all through, and have not had their faith challenged, and are just generally emotive and overwrought. As soon as their religion got hard, they were all like, Meh, nevermind. 😏

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

They're also the first people to tell you that they're "faithful, but not religious", or that they believe it's all "absolutely, literally true", but they don't go to church because that seems like a waste of time and whatever, game is on.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I mean, we tried that, right? 😅 Didn't work.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

The Bible doesn't make the claim to be a text about squirrel mating habits, tho. This is what I mean.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I think physics isn't as important as metaphysics. That doesn't mean that physics is wrong, tho. It just has a limited scope and doesn't explain everything, and doesn't answer the hardest questions, and it has to be constantly updated to be precise.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

My point is that there is also no direct link between a literal interpretation and remaining in the faith. I was mistaken, back then, for assuming that their faith was deeper than mine was, merely because they made grander claims and seemed more certain. Most people are actually surprisingly shallow, so when they say something very emphatically, it doesn't really mean much. I was impressed, but that was me projecting my own inner ocean onto their pond. I think this generally something that very cerebral/scholastic people struggle with: people who never question their own faith, who make massive, sweeping claims, but skip on the follow through. Makes the whole thing seem like a joke. They are a terrible witness and they do a lot of damage to evangelization. I think you're obviously operating on a higher plane than I am, but I think people like me also have a place in the Church.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I also think Catholicism does a better job of ministering to people like me because it aims to be a Big Tent, with a minimum standard, rather than trying to constantly weed everyone out with purity tests.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

That said, Catholicism also makes some Big Claims, of course. The Eucharist really is the body and blood of Christ and not merely a symbol. And the Pope holds the keys to the Kingdom. Obviously. Literally. 😁

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

I mean, He LITERALLY said that it's His body and blood and that we should do this in remembrance of Him. Everyone is cherry-picking what "literally" means, IMO, otherwise, we would all agree on everything. I'm convinced that believing it _all_ literally is heroic virtue and only a small number of people have ever fully achieved it, but that doesn't mean that lots of other people weren't as faithful and aren't also spending eternity with Christ. These are not things that perfectly align, or that humans can even accurately judge.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

And, like, I bet the Pope takes it all completely literally, but I think he's wrong about some of it and is sometimes misinterpreting it. 😬 no further comment Felt the opposite about the former Pope. He was more "sympatisch" for me and his writing really moves me.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

Because they don't see us all as Pilgrims at different stages on the journey, or people who are simply limited by nature and doing their best with what capabilities they have been giving. They don't actually believe that faith is enough for eternal life, even if it is as small as a mustard seed. That's the part that they _literally_ skip over. 😏 > So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

The faith can be tiny and still grant you superhuman strength because the strength comes from the Holy Spirit, not from you. Just as eternal salvation comes from Christ and not from what you think about some particular passage in the Bible. He doesn't need our help to save us. We simply face the decision of whether we accept that salvation and join Him in the Light forever, or stay apart and alone, in the Dark, outside of communion with Him. We have to consciously choose, even if we don't really understand it or have questions. Literally.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

We are just here, temporarily. Putting too much weight on the time on Earth seems to reduce the quality of life on Earth, by making us too decadent and preoccupied with things that don't really matter, and causing us to make uncharitable decisions and slide into moral relativism. That's why you can't have a Christian society with a bunch of non-Christians. Without Grace, it simply doesn't work. What I do see around me, is that non-Christians who grow up surrounded by Christians can keep society running for quite some time, before it begins to slide, out of good habits and traditions. But those get dropped, if the reason for their existence goes away.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 1d

And I think they miss out on people's gifts and talents, by demanding too much perfection in one particular thing. Like, churches that are highly charismatic and don't want you around because you're too introverted and spergy, or whatever. Dealt with that, once. Because it _literally_ says that we can speak in tongues and I'm like, sorry I got nothing. I don't even hear voices, when I pray. I'll just see myself out.

Laeserin @Laeserin - 17h

You don't have to apologize to me for disagreeing with me. I'm an adult; I can handle it. But I think this discussion sort of highlights my scepticism about the "literally" thing, because the schism in the Church is partially an artefact of which parts some faction took literally. Catholics tend to take everything Jesus said directly to His disciples absolutely literally because the people of the Early Church took them literally and the New Testament was put together years later, under their direction and divine inspiration. These things Jesus said, with emphasis, are the Biggest Biblical Claims because they're the metaphysical claims. They're the wildest, most-outrageous parts of the whole Library, but they're also the parts that are impossible to disprove on Earth. You can't go dig in the ground and find Heaven, but you might find Eden. In other words. But who really cares about Eden, when there is _literally_ Heaven? And, like, Jesus said Mary is our mother, but y'all are like, He didn't mean that literally. Yes, He did! He legit took a break from dying to make the point. Seems like He thought it was an important point and that we should remember it and maybe even, eventually, write it down. Determining what is _literally_ true, is what the Church has been fighting over for a couple of millennia, and we haven't even managed to reach universal consensus on Baptism.

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